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Yaakov Wolff's avatar

I’m enjoying the discussion so far—there’s one angle I haven’t seen mentioned.

Styles of Torah learning never develop in a vacuum. Outside forces keep nudging us. The focus on “yeshivish” masechtos and the deep-dive iyun common in many yeshivos grew, at least partly, as a response to the Haskalah: we had to show that our brilliance matched the best of the secular world.

These pivots aren’t new. The printing press, writing down Torah she-be’al peh, and publishing the Shulchan Aruch all reshaped how we learn.

So where does that leave us? I’m not sure. Like Zach, I want us to keep thinking for ourselves—but we may be standing at the edge of another shift that will reshape Talmud Torah once again.

One last thought: my rebbe, Rav Moshe Stav, once said he has never seen someone studying on a screen and singing along. Torah is called a shirah—a song. Whatever tools we use, let’s ask: does the way I learn make me want to sing?

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Tzvi Goldstein's avatar

YK Zach -- great article. I think its important to point out a distinction the Maharal makes in the beginning of Tiferes Yisrael. He says that when a person is learning themselves, Hashem appreciates the effort and is willing to overlook mistakes (even fairly heretical ones). But that changes when a person begins teaching Torah (and it seems like this would apply when sharing one's learning with others, as well) - there, effort alone is not enough, the standard is much more outcome-oriented; the material must be objectively correct. So while effort is a central element of talmud Torah, i think its going to too far to say that its the definition of the mitzvah.

I think your quote from Rav Kook at the end illustrates this. I don't understand what it would mean to be 'revealing new dimensions' in Torah if a person struggled through a sugya for an hour and came away with the basic understanding - what new dimension was revealed solely through the effort? Ella, the expectation seems to be that every person has some novel insight they have the capability to uncover - but that's an outcome focus, not an effort focus.

In general, I appreciated the methodology employed of addressing the question by stepping back and asking about the essential goal of talmud Torah. A different answer to that question, which yields a slightly different answer to the AI question, i think might be provided by Rav Hirsch and the Rav in Halachic Man. I think both see the goal of talmud torah to be molding the person learning, teaching him to see life/process experiences through a specific lens. The process of learning is both the way to uncover that lens (outcome focus) and also important for training oneself to adopt that lens (process focus), which is then reinforced by going out and doing the mitzvos about which one is learning when possible. For example, Shabbos is meant to reinforce a specific perspective on our role in the world. We discover what that is through learning, and teach ourselves to use that lens both by keeping Shabbos and by learning more about Shabbos. I think this is a bit more practically oriented than a pure effort focus or the idea from Rav Kook about the soul of the learner revealing new frontiers in Torah.

Relatedly, I think this is something which is going to have to shift in general education as well. When AI can do your homework faster, better, and easier than you can, i think teachers are going to really have to justify why its important for a student to personally know the material they're teaching - for example, literature or poetry as something that can serve as a mental model to process personal experiences.

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